舵机间属于机器处所么？

水平 · 发表于 2013-10-11 17:52

我想找依据

不过我问一句，船上所有的处所都必须遵守公约的定义么？

朗峰 · 发表于 2013-10-11 19:04

水平发表于 2013-10-11 17:52 我想找依据不过我问一句，船上所有的处所都必须遵守公约的定义么？

每章都有每章的定义，就非液货船以外货船结构防火来说，全船每个舱室都要对应11种处所中的一种，不然就无法进行防火划分！

水平 · 发表于 2013-10-11 19:10

无法定义的要和船旗国取得联系，他们会给出定义

朗峰 · 发表于 2013-10-11 19:25

水平发表于 2013-10-11 19:10 无法定义的要和船旗国取得联系，他们会给出定义

呵呵…这又是哪里规定的？

wudoumi · 发表于 2013-10-21 10:36

不属于

Rainen_online · 发表于 2013-11-4 20:55

若应急消防泵位于舵机间相当于控制站处理，舵机间不属于机器处所。

江海直达 · 发表于 2013-11-4 21:25

舵机间属于7类机器处所，非A类机器处所。

你说的II-2，是啥东东？没见过这种定义定义！？

公约就是这么定义的。A类机器处所指：主推进机器所在的机舱，以及锅炉间，还有主要电气设备间和有345千瓦内燃机的所在的舱室，等。

朗峰 · 发表于 2013-11-6 12:39

Rainen_online 发表于 2013-11-4 20:55 若应急消防泵位于舵机间相当于控制站处理，舵机间不属于机器处所。

如果E.P.不设在舵机舱，舵机舱属于什么处所？

shipwang168 · 发表于 2013-11-6 22:02

有答案吗？应急发电机属于机器处所吗

xiaoen0123 · 发表于 2013-11-16 00:29

必须是机器处所，但不是A类机器处所

水平 · 发表于 2013-11-18 11:03

这个问题大家不要只表态，请说明原因。

youngfp · 发表于 2013-11-18 12:05

水平发表于 2013-11-18 11:03
这个问题大家不要只表态，请说明原因。

其实这个问题真的没什么深究的价值，个人鄙见，在1楼已经说了，舵机属于主要电动机械，符合公约对机器处所的定义。

其实如果好好研究公约的话，会发现公约还是隐含表达了舵机处所就是机器处所的意思，依据如下，
请看SOLAS/II-2-13.4条，机器处所脱险通道，在本条之下，4.13和4.2.2，分别有句话“在舵机处所，如果应急操舵装置位于该处所，应提供第2条脱险通道，但该处所设有直接通向开敞甲板通道者除外。”，这还不足以说明舵机处所是机器处所么？

水平 · 发表于 2013-11-20 14:24

还有其他的见解么？

如果这样那么II-1 29.13.1 对舵机舱的要求，又该怎么解释呢？

易于到达，并尽可能与机器处所分开

13 The steering gear compartment shall be:
.1 readily accessible and, as far as practicable, separated from machinery spaces; and
.2 provided with suitable arrangements to ensure working access to steering gear machinery and controls. These arrangements shall include handrails and gratings or other non-slip surfaces to ensure suitable working conditions in the event of hydraulic fluid leakage.

水平 · 发表于 2013-11-20 14:26

此问题的提出不是叫大家来分个高低，而是经常会面对这样的问题，需要大家集思广益，不停地探讨。

水平 · 发表于 2013-11-20 14:28

youngfp 发表于 2013-11-18 12:05
其实这个问题真的没什么深究的价值，个人鄙见，在1楼已经说了，舵机属于主要电动机械，符合公约对机器处 ...

即使是SOLAS有这个意思，也不应该使用这么隐晦的表达方式。

hellozzw · 发表于 2013-11-20 15:55

看到这篇帖子，也激发了我查找真谛的小兴趣：

当我查看SOLAS(2012EDITION）之后，我发现Machinery Space 在Solas Chaper II-1中有两个定义：

第一个在 Part A-General 下第2小条 Definitions 里：
Machinery spaces are spaces between the watertight boundaries of a space containing the main and auxiliary propulsion machinery, including boilers, generators and electric motors primarily intended for propulsion. In the case of unusual arrangements, the Administration may define the limits of the machinery spaces.
这里很明显舵机间是不在该条机械处所的定义里的，即使舵机间有应急消防泵（跟推进系统无关），也就是说舵机间不属于机械处所。（估计能解释水平管理员对II-1 29.13.1 的疑问了吧）

第二个在 Part A-General 下第3小条 Definitons relating to Parts C,D and E 里：
Machinery spaces are all machinery spaces of category A and all other spaces containing propelling machinery, boilers, oil fuel units, steam and internal combustion engines, generators and major electrical machinery, oil filling stations, refrigerating, stabilizing, ventilation and air conditioning machinery, and similar spaces, and trunks to such spaces.
通过这条定义很容易的就把舵机间包括在机械处所里了。

然而为什么会有两条定义呢？看solas第二章的目录会发现，A,B部分是船体结构方面，C,D,E 主要是轮机舾装部分。因此我认为前者定义是针对船体结构部分的，后者的定义主要是在Part C,D,E 舾装轮机领域。至于为什么这么分，还请大神来吧，我想各个领域都有自己的视角，因此对各个部分的定义也是不同或者各有各的用意吧。

以上只是本人的愚见，还请大神指点一二，小弟求知若渴。

江海直达 · 发表于 2013-11-20 17:15

hellozzw 发表于 2013-11-20 15:55
看到这篇帖子，也激发了我查找真谛的小兴趣：

当我查看SOLAS(2012EDITION）之后，我发现Machinery Space ...

Explanation for control stations
1 Main navigational equipment includes, in particular, the steering stand and the compass, radar and position-finding equipment.

2 Steering gear rooms containing an emergency steering position are not considered to be control stations.

3 Where in the regulations of [url=mk

MSITStore

:\LloydsRegister_RuleFinder_920_EN_100\VFS\SFT_PROGRAM_FILES_X64\Lloyd’s%20Register\Rulefinder\9.20\Rulefinder_STAT.chm::/l11.1.3.2.2.10.7.html]chapter II-2[/url] relevant to fixed fire-extinguishing systems there are no specific requirements for the centralization within a control station of major components of a system, such major components may be placed in spaces which are not considered to be a control station.

4 Spaces containing, for instance, the following battery sources should be regarded as control stations regardless of the battery capacity:
.1 emergency batteries in separate battery room for power supply from black-out till start of the emergency generator;

.2 emergency batteries in separate battery room as reserve source of energy to radio installation;

.3 batteries for start of the emergency generator; and

.4 in general, all emergency batteries required in pursuance of [url=mk

MSITStore

:\LloydsRegister_RuleFinder_920_EN_100\VFS\SFT_PROGRAM_FILES_X64\Lloyd’s%20Register\Rulefinder\9.20\Rulefinder_STAT.chm::/l31.1.3.2.2.10.6.10.5.html]regulation II-1/42[/url] or [url=mk

MSITStore

:\LloydsRegister_RuleFinder_920_EN_100\VFS\SFT_PROGRAM_FILES_X64\Lloyd’s%20Register\Rulefinder\9.20\Rulefinder_STAT.chm::/l31.1.3.2.2.10.6.10.7.html]II-1/43[/url].

水平 · 发表于 2013-11-20 22:24

江海直达发表于 2013-11-20 17:15
Explanation for control stations
1 Main navigational equipment includes, in particular, the steer ...

你这个回复的意思是什么意思？说明什么属于控制站？

江海直达 · 发表于 2013-11-21 09:46

本帖最后由江海直达于 2013-11-21 09:50 编辑

水平发表于 2013-11-20 22:24
你这个回复的意思是什么意思？说明什么属于控制站？

总结：舵机间，应作为：非A类及其处所，非服务处所，非控制站；

加分，之后再告诉大家定义的来源。。。

5 Definitions
5.1. Relevant factors - Relevant factors are descriptors of a safety issue. In the case of these guidelines, the relevant factors describe engine-room safety in terms of the human element aspects that are affected by layout, design and arrangement.

5.2. Engine room - For the purposes of these guidelines, the engine-room is considered to be a space or spaces containing propelling machinery, boilers, oil fuel units, generators, and major electrical machinery, and includes auxiliary machinery spaces, store rooms, workshops, machine shops, the shaft alley, and the steering gear room.

5.3. Familiarity - This relevant factor addresses the relationship between engine-room safety and efficiency and crew member familiarity with layout, equipment, systems, procedures, alarms, signs and symbols. Maximizing crew member familiarity will result in fewer accidents due to errors in reading instruments and mix-identifying equipment.

5.4. Occupational health - This relevant factor addresses the effect of engine-room environment on crew member health and performance. Enhancing workplace comfort will result in fewer accidents caused by psychological and physiological stresses.

5.5. Ergonomics - This relevant factor addresses the sensory connections between crew members and engine-room equipment, controls, instruments and alarms and the typical needs of personnel working in the engine-room. Considering personnel needs and designing human-machine interfaces that recognize human capabilities will minimize accidents due to human limitations and tendencies.

5.6. Survivability - This relevant factor addresses the crew’s capability to survive an emergency in the engine-room. Giving rational consideration to possible emergency conditions, the placement of emergency equipment, and the routine duty stations of and typical routes taken by crew members, will maximize the chances of crew survival.

5.7. Minimizing risk through design, layout and arrangement - This relevant factor addresses the affects of physical configuration on engine-room safety. Creating an engine-room configuration through a detailed, systems perspective will remove impediments to efficient engine room operations and minimize the chance that an accident involving one piece of equipment will affect the operability or performance of another piece of equipment.

江海直达 · 发表于 2013-11-21 09:53

江海直达发表于 2013-11-21 09:46
总结：舵机间，应作为：非A类及其处所，非服务处所，非控制站；

加分，之后再告诉大家定义的来源。。。 ...

Engine room - For the purposes of these guidelines, the engine-room is considered to be a space or spaces containing propelling machinery, boilers, oil fuel units, generators, and major electrical machinery, and includes auxiliary machinery spaces, store rooms, workshops, machine shops, the shaft alley, and the steering gear room.

[SOLAS] 舵机间属于机器处所么？