15位国外同行对中国造船的10多个意见，你有补充的吗

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:02

Louis Yao • There are thousand of shipyards in China. Though many of them were set up during the boom years with poor engineering knowhow, management skill and yard facilities, it is still wrong to generalize and say that "China fails in the service and quality". There are many good shipyards in China that produce quality vessels. To be successful building a vessel in China, the owner has to select an established yard with good trade record, willing to pay a fair price and station a reliable team, preferrably with the ability to communicate in Chinese, at the yard. I have been involved in ship building in China since early 90s and have seen many successful as well as failed projects. The problem does not always lie with the shipyards. Owners hoping to build a vessel at a fraction of the price outside China and poor communication between site team and the yard are major causes of the failure. Somehow, I agree with Mr Jaebong Lee's comments quoted below (I am not sure of the percentage quoted though).

"1. Wage level is 20% of Korean level, but production value per person is also similar. Cheaper labors can not contribute on competitiveness.
2. Production lead time in shop and dry dock are 3 times longer than that in Korean shipyards. These mean Chinese are paying Min. twice expense in differential cost and interest and management cost and utility cost.
3. Chinese ships are heavier to Koreans by 3~4% and producing 4~5% more steel scrap, The benefits from cheaper steel price in China can compensate effectiveness difference of steel.
4. No of parts (steel parts, pipe spool parts) is higher by 10~ 20%. This creates bigger handling cost and joining cost."

Expection of owners to build a vessel at an unreasonably low price always lead them to a shipyard that offers poor quality, bad service and a fail project.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:03

Vivek Desai • I do not agree with Mr Bills statement. There are some Good shipyards , wherein you can get Good quality as well as Good service after sales.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:03

Ryszard Kuzniewicz • Mr Peters
My comment was in general about this what you mentioned extra. You can get excellent product almost everywhere.This is only matter of price and does not to be Dutch product which I find nothing exceptional but bearing in mind value for money is rather poor.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:03

bruce durant • Quality is not just about systems and documentation, that only records what youve done right ot wrong. The fundamental source of good quallity is the breadth and depth of the knowledge of the people doing the job. Weather we talk about the designer or the tradesman it is irrelevant it applies to everybody.

Everybody needs mentoring to some degree or other (even older people like myself). In Europe the mentors with vast experience are dying out and in China I suspect there were not enough to go around.

A few years ago I looked at a lot of yards around the world including the far east to decide if we might subcontract whole ships outside of the uk. I tried scoring their abilities of the yards using a mofified form of the FMI benchmarking system, however one thing struck me quite forceably was that in Europe If we have a manufacturing problem we throw technology at it - EG panel lines/Laser alignment/ Welding robots etc

In China I saw the inverse of this. In most of the yards I visited they threw people at the problem.

Now this is not universally true but it does give pause for thought.

In the EU we know we have a demographic issue and we are losing a lot of skills hence the automation. In the boom years in China the knowledge base of in the individuals in the yards was probably neither wide enough or deep enought to cope with the expansion and given the greater number of people the oppertuniy for deep on the job learning by an individual would have been reduced because of lack of breadth of exposure to problems.

I've commented else where on the need for 'hands dirty' sort of trainning for people in the shipbuilding industry so I'll not repeat that subject. The old addage 'If you don't make mistakes you won't learn' needs to be modified because without a tutor/mentor you might not know whet you need to learn to rectify the mistake

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:03

Bruce Daley • My Names Sake,
A little long winded but fully understand, I have kept away from this discussion for a while but have been watching it, as it happens I think I could be one of your "old timers" so to speak having been in the Ship Repair / New Buildings for around 35+ years, in this time I have spent many occasions working in China both on Ship Repair and New Building not long completed a New Building Project in Dalian, and to cut a long story short, I have found the Chinese Management and with out a doubt the work force some of the most accomodating people you could wish to meet, not only are they friendly but they want to learn from the likes of old timers from Europe etc. They have problems enough over there regarding investment in the yards and as you say exposure and training of the work force, one thing I hope won`t happen in China is that over time they end up as the Korean and Japanese Ship Yards in other words blinkered, only one way of thinking and that is "production" big time the work force are the equivilent of trained robots as are the Management, and believe me I know first hand Korea is my home and has been for the last 13yrs. but I also contract to China and Japan, China will eventually take over but I just hope they don`t end up as the robots in Korea and Japan

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:04

chavdar koev • Dear all,I was in China last month, after three years successful contract. I agree,that without a strong site team with full backing from the owners we can not find good quality. As we know a lot of owners order the ships to be built in these yards but before they are built they have already sold them on, so no matter how good the site team is regarding quality etc. all depends on the owners and there way of doing business, if they are building a vessel to keep then a good quality minded strong site team will be required and even then the site team has to work as one and together, if the Owners pay peanuts then they end up with monkeys ,as say Mr Daley.One strong supervision team and full support from the Owner site is good reason for success in Chinese shipyards.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:04

Menton Tomy • Hi All , I dont have experience in building a new ship in china. But as an equipment trader ,I had bought ,Still buying equipments from china , in my humble opinion when you buy equipments from china , If you are going for cheapest local brand..then you may end up with all sort of mess.But as far I know ,If you are choosing reputed local chinese brands which is not new or small by terms of annual turnover they are also keen to give after sales service.there are many good companies in china where you can find many employees who know english.the whole world is buying anchor chains from china only in 70 % of cases...So I repeat , the same what many others already told here...You will get what you pay for..

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:04

Mahesh Nayak • I totally agree with you Bill.This is where Life cycle cost prediction of a vessel comes handy.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:04

Cevat Rıfat Atilhan • Couldn't agree with you more Bill

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:04

Andrey Ozernykh • Any shipowners (European, USA) don't pay attantion on quality and HSE because chinese shipbuilders can give them best financial terms in the World!
And all Certification societies (Lloyd's, BV, DNV&GL, RR, RINO etc.) are giving chinese shipyards Certificates ISO 9001, ISO 14001, OHSAS 18001 without any problems.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:05

ARUN RAJA • Hey Guys,Good products usually won't be cheap.
Fast work + cheap = Low Quality Job
Quality Work + Cheap = Won't be fast
Fast work + Quality Work = Won't be Cheap

Through Experience & meeting with Ship Owners,the only Shipyard that I know in Asia that produces Mass production,
Quality job,Safety for workers & reasonable price to shipowners is Jurong Shipyard in SINGAPORE. They're ain't company that gives you unrealistic schedules for job completion.

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:05

Deenys Guzmàn • I see to lot vessel in transit in panama hat, usually visit, some Chine construction, and I have to friends chine naval architect, that problems is not the drawing or constructed fast and low cost that problems is: need to good materials like IE: electrical wire from USA, or from Amsterdam, materials that cranes uses wire rope not good quality and some other things what is Low cost, how long you find money backs or returner to customer, on this days all material have day of ends, not like 60-70, material is BUSINESS WORLD, What happen or someone thing in risk and life , damages human or disaster, Not thinking, Only like seed what class of material using on hull Concordia , For me is not find low or simple find bum about any material uses on ship for me find to safe quality life for ships, or prevent fire .... All fucking ships have big words
SAFETY FIRST!” Is better SAFETY SECUNDARY!”

Depends on your plans what is your plan?

歪鼻子公主 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:05

Yener Tohumat • Dear Deenys, nice comment. Especially on tankers it is written as NO SMOKING above and SAFETY FIRST below. It dependes how you read it ;) "NO SMOKING, SAFETY FIRST" or "NO SAFETY, SMOKING FIRST"... Anyway, not important where you buy it from, but it is really important what quality you buy. That's why, the good owners were trying to built their ships in shipyards where they can suppress their requirements at the optimum (cheapest of the highest quality) but, today, I think depending on the maritime sector's situation, nearly all of the owners are trying to make it as cheap as possible, without checking the quality so much. Would you buy a vessel with unwelded stiffners, webs, etc inside? But there are some... I think we might look this with the economical glasses, balance of supply and demand. There is demand of cheaper solutions (no mentioning in quality) and there is supply of that, no need to blame Chinese people so much, they are answering the demand... I don't mean I like this situation, but this is the situation at the moment...

fyu003 · 发表于 2013-1-17 09:41

只看到满屏

diyuhuo123 · 发表于 2013-1-17 11:53

存在这种现象，但不是全部，值得我们警醒

Kingkong16 · 发表于 2013-1-18 19:30

楼主辛苦了，有些评论蛮中肯的，但是有些也是草包捣糨糊。

日月明言 · 发表于 2013-1-19 11:43

briefly quality has its price

nrg2007 · 发表于 2013-1-20 13:45

LinkedIN这种网站都不知道的人。。。唉。。。

rex56 · 发表于 2013-1-20 19:13

歪鼻子公主发表于 2013-1-17 08:56
China fails in the service and quality
Absolutely China made vessels have the lowest price in the w ...

不了解售后这片是怎么操作的

hellozzw · 发表于 2013-1-21 08:52

非常同意啊，中国在产品质量还有服务上，与国外还是有差距的，特别是在普通工人素质上，差的不是一点半点。。。。。